Steerpike said:

Hmm, this made me think of an episode of the cartoon series "Dungeons and Dragons" (yes, thye made a cartoon heavily inspired from the first editions of the RPG). I remember when the adventurers had to cross this labyrinth filled with obstacles, and in one area they discovered piles of skeletons clad in armour. They soon discovered that these corpses were from the same army and they had fought eachother to death. The reason why soon became apparentsince that part of the labyrinth was cursed, making people excessively angry and filled with rage towards one another, which wopuld eventually lead to bloodshed.

I wonder if some pre-written adventures might have similar "magical" effects on the tension meter. Imagine the players seeing that the GM suddenly increasing the party tension for no apparent reason. They have to roleplay the increased tension but at the same time try to think out why the tension meter suddenly increased.

.. If I was the GM I'd definetly use the tension meter for something like that.

Varnias Tybalt said:

I remember when the cartoon was on, but I didn't catch very many episodes.  Never saw that one.

That's a good point, though.  It could give rise to some interesting roleplaying opportunities in the sense you suggest.  That would be interesting for a group of any level of experience.  And the GM could, of course, decide when to use it and when to not use it, so if it seemed to be interfering with RP for some reason, simply set it aside for a while.

I'm interested in seeing more about how this is intended to work.

I'm interested to learn more about how this Party Tension Meter is going to work, but based on what (little) I've heard so far, it doesn't seem like something I would use.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Oh no, there was nothing personal about it. I meant losing friends in the characters point of view. :) Nobody left the group or anything like that. In that case they just rerolled new characters from the regiment.

 Ah the famous words "you wanna go?" or "you do it my way or my character kills yours and you go home and never comeback!"  yep I have seen both scenarios. Not everyone at the table is going to be best friends many friends of friends end up joining in the game because there friend invites them. Some will pick on the fat kid, others feel the story needs to be about them, and sometimes outside conflict gets in the way. The latter can only be solved by canceling the session, but the other two could be solved with the tension mechanic. 

When players (not their characters) fight usually the other players get annoyed but don't feel like getting involved. They would rather just sit there with a disappointed look on their face hoping the GM or as most books call them "referee" resolves the issue. But now they have a roleplaying reason done with the same system as the military. Rather than punish the two players fighting punish the team if they don't stop. This encourages the table to try and figure out of to reslove the issue at hand as a team, rather than having to play with less players because they leave the table. I know this sounds rediculous, but it seems FFG knows about the tension that can be caused amongst players over the stupid things, so they came up with a system to discourage that behavior. Warhammer FRP is a game of survival from what I can tell. No party can survive without first learning teamwork. 

This tension think seems like its meant to be a boon more that a bane too me. BUT until the system is laid out I reserve judgement.

The tension aspect looks like a nice idea, but I cant realy see how this would help a game, to be honest.

My concerns with it:
- I would think this gives a tool for those GMs (or groups) that run games GM vs Players: dont like your players up the tension (which I thought the design was trying to reduce).
- one or two players can cause the tension to rise, thusly causing situations for other players that may not be a part of the current 'scene' or just to simply be disruptive.
- can break the flow of things when or as a result of the GM increasing the tension meter
- require the GM to explain tension rising for in game and out of game actions
- controling the situation and having players less likely to play in-character conflits because the characters should be having them due to characterisation or story influences.
- an excuse for the GM and other players not to get involved and resolve out of game conflicts.

The up side is Im sure it will be a good thing initially for new players to assist them but fear they may also get dependant on it.

However the ability to use it for a refrence for in-story 'tension' could be quite useful.

I guess it realy depends on the ramifications of hitting the green points on the meter actually will do.

Theoretically, roleplaying aspects would indeed drive the meter. But if it has real mechanical effects, players can annoyed that the other are fighting and discourage it - even if it's in character for those characters to be arguing. I think that's what we're driving at with worries of this discouraging roleplaying.

darkkami said:

Nope not that either :D There was no tension between the players. It was a situation where couple of characters direction (motivation etc.) was taking them (the characters) to a different path than what the mercenary regiment was taking. It was not logical for the characters to stay in the group. The players suggested the reroll to the GM. Practically they lost really tough and experienced fighters for a new character in the name of the story.

A tension mechanic would have driven the characters away from this path, if the tension would have been represented so blatantly. Now they found the characters in this situation. Having come to the realisation, after some inner conflict (player and character) they made the decision.

The tension meter can be good. I'm just saying that it wouldnt work for us, but we have played together for years and years..

Loswaith said:

On the other hand, this mechanic could force players to roleplay said conflicts more often. Because if the GM knows that one characters actions would upset another certain character, but sees that the players just aren't responding to it (due to cluelessness or just because they want to avoid getting party tension penalties), he kan increase the tension. And if the players say something about it the GM can say:

-"Well it's really up to you. We've already established what kind of actions your PC's like and don't like, and if you refuse to speak out against them in fear of increased party tension then im going to have to interprate myself when the tension meter would rise. So either you can roleplay your characters accordingly and perhaps get a few extra XP out of it for good roleplaying, or you can just sit and watch. Because when I see a situation where tension would rise, I will increase the meter, regardless of how good or bad you roleplay your characters."

So the way I see it, this can be a useful tool in order to give the players a kick in the butt when you clearly see that they aren't roleplaying their characters correctly.

Varnias Tybalt said:

Which is still a crude punishment system for the GM to impose his will on the players as to how they should be roleplaying their characters. "You guys need to roleplay more, or else!!!" isn't really any better than "you guys need to stick to the adventure, or else!"

macd21 said:

Well what's the point of making up a player character and inventing goals, beliefes and backgroundstory for it if you're NOT gonna roleplay the character fully? It is well within the rights of a GM to make sure that characters are roleplayed accordingly.

It's also well within the GM's rights to arbitrarily kill off the party by putting them in a completely inescapable death-trap, just because he doesn't like how they're roleplaying HIS scenario (this actually happened to me as a player, though not in WFRP).

That doesn't mean it's a good idea. The GM shouldn't be imposing his will on the party, the individual players or their interpretation of THEIR characters.

A GM can encourage good roleplaying and/or good storytelling. GM has to make judgments when it comes to rules and when it comes to do "boundaries" in the game. I don't like punishment mentality as we all are there to have fun. If GM takes control of something as vague as "good roleplaying", the game is set with a negative mood. In that case I see the tension meter showing the tension between players and GM. That is not it's purpose, I think..

Although I have to admit that I've never faced players who deliberately try to ruin the game.. So I gues punishments have their purpose. Yet then again, I would not play with that kind of player either..

I'm somewhat optimistic about the party sheet and tension meter. 

1) I have a couple of shit disturbers in my group, including someone who frequently spends more time trying to manipulate and deceive party members into doing his will than messing with NPCs.  This is a nice way of tracking the effects of his antics and the heavy handed decisions other players sometimes try to force down the group's throat.

2) Groups have their own special dynamics.  There's the ability to anticipate what another character will do without being told, common tactics, etcetera.  Tracking this with its own character card is just as legitimate as tracking character development with a character sheet.

3) Game mechanics that track/impose certain behaviors are nothing new, especially in a game that has unleashed fear and terror tests on poor PCs in every previous edition.  It is equally valid to track tension as fear and while good roleplaying is always appreciated, just like fear, tension can be purely metagamed out of the way when inconvenient so using game mechanics to track it is completely justified. 

 I still don't think that the tension meter is designed to be used as a GM stick and viewing it that way may be missing the entire point of it.  Now granted, Jay did use the example of the GM moving the tension meter so as to let players know that they were getting out of hand, or whatever the example he used.  So maybe that IS the purpose of the mechanic.  Which would be a shame since I see it as a very cool roleplaying feature

This tool in my game would be used simply to lend a mechanic to the effect of party cohesion on performance.  This is real life stuff and there's no reason it can't serve a very spicy role in an RPG.  I foresee folks really and truly roleplaying intraparty conflict, dealing with the stress of being thrust into the role of "hero", even racial bigotry....and as they roleplay these dramatic points an actual mechanic is there to kick in to represent how it effects their performace as a team.  Part of the theme of the game then becomes, how do you handle the stress of being an anti-hero in a group of folks with disparate backgrounds, trying to work together for some common good.  I can foresee times where players would intentionally throw fuel on the fire in a heated roleplay scene so as to intentionally suffer the mechanical fallout.  Just to see if the party to can hold itself together long enough to get the job done.  That's rich stuff!  And its not JUST for roleplay any more.

That's what excites me about the Tension Meter.  Can't wait to see if it can actually serve this purpose...