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Steerpike said:
Necrozius said:
True, but the dice certainly decide the behavior of his character when he fails a Fear test, right?
Yes, but that's a subconscious reaction. The character fails the fear check and he is overcome by the effect. When it comes to conscious decisions that should be the province of the GM or player, I don't care for game mechanics that dictate or override the player. To me, that is the single worst aspect of 4e D&D.
Without knowing more, I can't say whether the mechanics of 3e WFRPG will do this sort of thing. I was just responding to an example posted, and for all I know the mechanics may not bear the example out. I'm interested in seeing more about the new edition, but I hope the designers didn't put in mechanics that essentially 'take over' roleplaying by imposing decisions on players or the GM that are best left to the player or GM in the first place. What I've seen so far doesn't suggest they've done this, but some of the interpretations I've seen on the boards do come across that way.
I can't think of anything in 4e like that at all. Game mechanics that override player decisions exist way more in the nWoD than anywhere else. But they are pretty thematic and are called out as such in the rules.
I seriously doubt something like the fearmongers are describing would have made it through playtesting. FFG is a very successful game company and you don't get there by releasing flagship products that haven't been vetted to such a degree that success is virtually assured. I'm pretty confident that WHFRP 3e will be a worthwhile experience even if it is so different from previous editions that a segment of the community can't bring themselves to try it.
The only inevitable thing is change.
Without Signature
Steerpike said:
Yes, but that's a subconscious reaction. The character fails the fear check and he is overcome by the effect. When it comes to conscious decisions that should be the province of the GM or player, I don't care for game mechanics that dictate or override the player. To me, that is the single worst aspect of 4e D&D.
Like I said, "impatience" was a bad choice of word.
Just about every single pen and pager rpg ever has dice based rules for psychology in some way, shape or form.
I mean, if your character wants to resist being seduced, he has to roll his Willpower or whatever.
If you want him to stand courageously in the face of a pack of Velociraptors, he has to pass a fear test of some kind.
Similarily, I believe that taking one;s sweet time to aim very carefully while monsters are charging you might require some kind of "cool" test. Concentration, perhaps?
Gorehammer said:
I can't think of anything in 4e like that at all. Game mechanics that override player decisions exist way more in the nWoD than anywhere else. But they are pretty thematic and are called out as such in the rules.
I don't want to turn this into a 4e discussion, but in the 4e games I've run this has come up numerous times. The example that comes to mind at player powers that require monsters or other opponents to move into certain squares. Thus, the mechanic completely overrides the conscious decision making of the monster or NPC. A power like Come and Get It, for example. The NPC or monster has no choice but to move no matter how intelligent, how faithful or fervently it wishes to hold a particular area. It's a board-game mechanic, essentially. So when our group played 4e we simply waived the ability of those types of powers to be used in certain situations. But that's less than desirable, because it takes away from powers granted to the PC so we disregarded it sparingly.
In any event, 4e is, in my view, rife with examples of metagaming and game-mechanic situations that overstep the RP or decision-making of the GM or players. Much more than any other RPG I've played (I've never played nWoD). I don't really want to see WFRPG going down that path, but as of yet I have no reason to think that they are. If they do and our group switches, we'll house rule away the most egregious examples. If that's not possible, we'll probably stick to 2e.
I'm taking a wait and see approach.
Without signature
Necrozius said:
Like I said, "impatience" was a bad choice of word.
Just about every single pen and pager rpg ever has dice based rules for psychology in some way, shape or form.
I mean, if your character wants to resist being seduced, he has to roll his Willpower or whatever.
If you want him to stand courageously in the face of a pack of Velociraptors, he has to pass a fear test of some kind.
Similarily, I believe that taking one;s sweet time to aim very carefully while monsters are charging you might require some kind of "cool" test. Concentration, perhaps?
Yeah, that makes sense. I think there is a fine line between such things and stepping into territory that really should be the will of the players. It's hard to define in the abstract. As I found when our group switched to 4e D&D, we know it when we see it (i.e. when it actually happened in-game). It's a big reason we're not playing 4e anymore.
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Steerpike said:
Over Land and in the Firmament doth Chaose marche, and the Beneathe is not free from it..
jadrax said:
Which mechanic are you referring to? I never played 1e. We play 2e a lot and have never had a problem with it. Most RPGs I have played (maybe all) tread into this territory to one degree or another, but only 4e has done so to the extent that I felt the game was turning into a farce. I'm curious which 2e mechanic you are referring to.
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The Manouvere Action in WFRP2.
Over Land and in the Firmament doth Chaose marche, and the Beneathe is not free from it..
jadrax said:
The Manouvere Action in WFRP2.
True to an extent. But I don't put it in nearly the same category as some of the powers, marking, and the like you get in 4e. When you get into higher level games in that system the movement of minis around the battlegrid (against the will of the player or GM controlling a given mini) really starts to get ridiculous. Playing a level 15 or so 4e game we were just laughing our asses off because it got THAT inane. But I'm derailing the thread...
...getting back to the OT, I don't think this will necessarily be a problem for WFRPG. The comparisons to 4e are inevitable, but I haven't seen anything to indicate with any certainty that FFG is heading down that path.
I certainly don't mind giving the dice a try. I tend not to like games with dice pools (like Exalted). They're easy enough to use, but something I just don't care for. But I'm willing to see how 3e WFRPG implements it before discounting it.
Without signature
I suspect, although again I do not KNOW, that it will be a lot more abstract in terms of your position that 4E.
Over Land and in the Firmament doth Chaose marche, and the Beneathe is not free from it..
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