It might just go to show how much I can still improve at this game, but I've always thought Raiding Camps are a bit overrated. Sure, when things go perfectly, Chaos can blow up the units easily via Plague Bomb et al, and have their ~6 Chaos-supports ready to play to utilize Raiding Camps, but things don't work out perfectly all that often. Raiding Camps and the other Capital-cycle-quest of course rarely if ever hurt a deck, but I thought Chaos still had a long way to go in terms of support destruction. I like Marauders more, partly because I think they have a pretty high chance of hitting in the early turns. Chaos starts, Empire or High Elves go with Huntsmen/Envoy to the quest and a 2-cost support to the kingdom, Chaos plays Marauders and destroys the support. But we'll see how often it'll really work out this way.

Virgo, I agree the local forums play a big role in why there's not so much activity here. And there's nothing wrong with that, in the end it's important that the community as a whole is intact and active, it doesn't have to be here, though it would be nice if it weren't so fractured. But it is understandable that most people prefer their national forums. Naturally there's the question of why we don't get more activity from native English speakers here. I assume many prefer to use the BGG boards for all their gaming needs.

Virgo said:

You know what would really help activity. If the forums showed the card automatically when you hover over the name like on deckbox.org(as I'm typing I'm realizing it hasn't helped their forums much)

Order can easy remove Marauderes with  Boiling Oil  (Imp),  Judgement of Loec (HE)  or  Honor in Death (Dw)

Judgement of Loec is the best early counter and unit removal. Everything else is rather unefficient. Order being less competetive in that way is a fact.

In theory Marauders got me pissed off really good. I want to show you why. Imagine you are order and the chaos player is starting with a chaos support and a village in kingdom and quest, so +1 / +1. Now you need to suspect cards like Warhounds, Sorcerer of Tzeentch, a Quest and a Spawn, even Plague Bomb (much more unlikely to be played on his 2nd turn) on the rest of his starting hand... ok, now you may start with some supports and hope he is not having the cards to utilise the quest. If he was already playing a quest, you will maybe go 1 unit, 1 support in the same zone or things like that if you even have the choice of doing so. At least you were having some plan to get into the game back then. Now we will have to suspect a Marauder too. He is having 4 mana and he might also play it out with Blood Summoning or Braying Gors for 3 or even for 2... Ok, lets try a support start anyway -> he is playing the marauder, you will have to sacrifice one support maybe loose one loyalty, there is no hindering this. Maybe you can remove it, but it will cost you something and you wont be able to install economy while the chaos player is still sitting on +1 / +1 Was the Marauder worth the money? Defenitely yes just like you are playing a 2nd turn Blood Dragon Knight! Is Chaos starting to control your first turn with this? Yes. Does it higher the chance for chaos to outright end the game on their 2nd turn? Yes.

Mauraders are fine. Chaos is becoming very linear in their starts. After this set is out, if you don't see a paticular starting chain out of Chaos, then they probably have a pretty crappy hand. Meaning you should be able to level out against them.

Is it strong? yes. Needed? yes. Will either it or Sorc's end up restricted? I think so.

Marauders seem balanced to me. They're quite a bit better when going first (like Pillage), but that's really more a problem with the first turn advantage than with Marauders. A lot of the time it's just going to be a 2/2 body for four, which is less than amazing. Plus, they have to go to the battlefield (or Wolves, I suppose) to do their thing, which means you're spending most or all of your second-turn barrels to kill one support card. Might be a good play in some spots, but doesn't seem over the top.

Keep in mind it's just theory thinking here. And i dont consider Marauders being op either. I just cant understand for what reason chaos should get them as they are already having plenty of options on their starting hands to come out on top. Marauders dont have to be played for a cost of 4 and neither do they have to be in the battlefield. We have discs of tzeentch, Khorvak and Wolves of the North. Also there is a huge difference between spending all your 2nd turn money for them OR just having the opportunity to do so. As opponent i have to suspect different cards on the chaos hand. Following this logic, i cannot play a single support or an important 2hp unit as a start against his hand anymore, i'm forced to have a deck that is starting with mutliple small units and/or supports.

You said Chaos starts were linear. Maybe on the first turn, but i dont know how you want to predict his 2nd turn in any way. Even average players know how to mindgame you ;) Maybe you can describe some examples or experiences.

Restriction would be very nice. Personally, i would restrict 2 chaos cards. Maybe the warhounds and the quest. But FFG is acting very cautious and kind of weird with this. I guess they won't restrict another card before world championships. They must want one faction at the top of the game. It has been empire and now it is Chaos imho.

Anyone knows when this will hit stores? We have April now and it should be in 1Q 2012, so a few days ago.

Mallumo said:

I think Raiding Camps is sort of a waste if you're only running 6 Chaos supports that aren't attachments. Makes it hard to have the quest to play in the first place, have a suitable unit sit on it, and hope you draw one of your 6 supports to blow something up, or NOT play your support until you have everything else set up. I'm no tournament player or pro, but I run 12 Chaos supports in my Chaos deck since Raiding Camps was released. You also need to balance out the othe cards types in the deck, as you'll need unit removal to a decent degree to allow Raiding Camps' condition to be met; this means a fair degree of damage tactics for consistent draw, as Sorcerer and Hounds won't always be in hand or deal enough. But you also need an acceptable percentage of units to consistently have several potential questers in hand for when you have the camps out and when you need to replace a dead quester (and make Hounds work). Quester death isn't devastating like it is on older quests due to there being no token accumulation and loss, and the quest is really only important during your Capital phase, when you can play supports from hand; quest can be vacant at all other times with no loss of ability.  I know Chaos doesn't exactly enjoy the widest variety of supports, but since I employ enemy unit corruption in my deck, Tainted Well and Shrine to Nurgle fit right in. Well is somewhat expensive, but Shrine is nice and cheap. Just as cheap is Desecrated Temple which also blows up developments when you lose a unit. Even cheaper is Wall of Maggots, which makes opponents attacking your zone(s) not such a hot idea with Wells and Bloodletters out, or if you have 6-12 Daemons in the deck, there is the 1-cost Chaos support from the Realm of the Phoenix King pack (forget the name right now), that lets you take a disease from discard back into hand (Plague Bomb, Effulgent Boils).

 I'm wondering why everyone writes only about Marauders while the most buffed race - looking at these 5 cards only - are the High Elves. Helm of Fortune attached to a unit on Return to Glory is an extremely dangerous combination. Right now the HE combo deck on Return to Glory with Elven Scout and Lore Seeker, in any version (with for example Grudge Thrower, Van Klumpf's Buccaneers or indirect combo) is one of the most powerful decks out there. The Helm will make in unstoppable if the player will take right cards.

Marauders are, I agree, strong. But they are not overpowered because of their cost. Empire was totally OP and needed restrictions because of its ridiculous economics and cheap control, while in Chaos powerful cards are adequatly expensive, so that a Chaos player can usually play only 1 such card a turn, save Quest. All of earlier OP beginnings that were shown assumed one thing: Chaos player begins. Still, I agree that Chaos is most versatile race.

Also, new quest is really interesting. I'm sure that after some time combo decks using it will appear. Obviously, I'm not sure if they will be strong enough to be played on tournaments.

At the moment in the game with a balanced card pool,the advantage of starting first is just too great.The games are mostly decided on the dice roll and thats what makes it sad.Unlike other games where there is an option for decks to start second,this game doesnt.If you win the dice roll its so that your opponent doesnt go first.Maybe they should let the person that goes first doesnt get to mulligan in order to balance the game a lil.

Plus with the new chaos cavalry,it pretty much seems chaos can just win the game in turn two by starting first.

 That's not true. Rush always wants to go second.

I dont recall orc decks going second,every deck wants to start first to establish economy asap and the faster you do that the faster you get to rush out stuff.

Plus going second your just reinforcing chaos's foothold on the game.

Agreed. The only time you will go 2nd, is when your mulligan was a total bugger and you need to draw one lucky card to get just a little economy.

Going 2nd against Chaos is a huge problem, not comparable to any other matchup. But also with Chaos going 2nd, they will easily come out on top. Because what they are doing while harrassing your stuff, is building up economy. Every other race just can't compete with such an efficiency in harrassing, in contrast they will have to invest in harrassing with tactics, attachments, battlefield units or else and will not get much more cards/gold next turn.

A short list of Chaos features: best unit control (even high hp and mass removal via plague bomb), best support control (maybe equal to orc atm), development control, good and relative fast economy (still having warpstones), don't need to put much in battlefield (because unleashing the spell can finish later), no loyalty problems (chaos spawn, ok starting cards), could support rush or decent combat damage, best card efficiency overall… who else has this?? :)

Btw marauders > Helm of Fortune, HE got a nice boost now though, but for pre - rising dawn decks several tournaments showed that return to glory combos could not compete with well thought out chaos decks.

When I play rush I usually choose to go second so I can attack first in hopes I will be able to get a zone burning before my opponent(not that turn necessarily). In my experience the person that burns a zone first has a huge advantage.