Tantavalist said:

Which is exactly how GURPS does it, out of interest.  The GURPS Vehicles rules never made its way to 4e, even though it does have its own merits.

Kage

I agree.  The ship that our "crew" will be on should be more than 'nuts and bolts'.  It should have a character and feel all its own, after all it is the ship that was worthy enough for our "crew".

And a Trait list ala Dark Heresy would seem to be evocative without actually describing anything, so right back in the territory of GW material. 

Kage

Kage2020 said:

GURPS Vehicles was essentially a collection of numbers and formulae. If you happened to have the program someone wrote for it then it was actually fairly good, but working out things with a pad of paper and a calculator (not optional!) was just frustrating. It was essentially a product intended for people who wanted to play at being an Engineer, and min-max optimal sizes etc. Not very good at all in other words. It was the old GDW's Fire, Fusion and Steel Traveller New Era supplement adapted for all tech levels.

4th Edition GURPS Spaceships is a much better idea, it gives 20 "slots" for any ship and then modifiers based on size/TL. I still think the Ars Magica Covenant design system, especially 5th Edition, would be the perfect thing to base ship design in 40K on though.

Erm, it sounds like I'm just arguing for the sake of it, but here we go.

Tantavalist said:

Yes, I know that.  It has functionally remained unchanged since 2 days, and while it can be used in 4e it is not inherently designed to do so.  Personally I found it reasonably easy to use and far more satisfying than the Star Wars-esque approach of throw some made up statistics into some categories.  Sure, ultimately they produce the same information, but it felt more satisfying.  I knew that the numbers were being pulled from the ether, but would have less of a sense that they were being pulled from someones a**e.

Not quite Fire, Fusion & Steel for those who knew both products, although the aim of both was clear: to give people the toolbox rather than sell them shiny catalogues of equipment.

Tantavalist said:

It's a much simpler design sequence, which has some advantages and disadvantages.  While it allows you to throw a ship together fairly quickly, there are some strange conventions used, up to and including a mass rather than volumetric design sequence.  If anything, it shares more in common with the GURPS Traveller approach.

On the other hand, the GURPS Spaceship line takes the more crunchy approach than the core rules, which allow a ship to be built in the same way as a character, as stated in my previous posts.

Tantavalist said:

It would certainly suit the more hazy approach that many feel comfortable with in the 40k universe, though obviously some people prefer a bit more... heft to their creations.  (And one can see where Dezmond got his terms for the various types of "Rogue Trader" he advocated elsewhere.)  Parallels can also be found in the World of Darkness systems and probably more that I'm unaware of.  Indeed, you get similar descriptions in Pendragon...

Each to his, her, or its own, though.  While I would love to have a bit more information about ship design in the 40k universe so that it could be applied to the 'fluff' rather than generic mention of "plasma drives," or "Can make the trip to the warp zone in 50% of the time" or whatever, I certainly don't expect to get that.  Something quick and easy is the more likely situation, and I'm not saying that is a bad thing.

Kage

The most recent incarnation of D6 space had a supplement called D6 Spaceships (clever eh?) but based on the example design rules from the D6 Space rule book, I was immediately turned off this kind of book. The design rules were clunky, unimaginative and not very flexible. I much rather also have plug and play ships then "deck four, section 8, halls A and B have 2000 tonnage, is 4000 cubic feet, runs on plasma Plus +2 Duracel super AAA batteries, has yellow walls and 8 red claxon alarm lights, except light number 5 in hall B is broken and often flashes on at random intervals, causing little real issues but ignoring Armsman J'Jones who pulls shift guard from 0300-0700 in that area."

Vehicle design rules like the ones found in Ninjas and Superspies (reprinted in Road Hogs and Heroes Unlimited) or even Redline were better, more detailed and little more open/flexible, but still involved a great deal of number crunching, calculations and keep track of.

I also prefer the more generic Star Wars D6 plug and play methods. Insert information here.

The Star Wars scale system also works well.

I do agree that the ship should have character as in flavour, but it should  never really feel like a extra PC/NPC. In a D6 Space Game I did run, the PCs had a ship that was haunted by a poltergeist made up of a group of pilgrims who were massacred on the ship while enroute to a hold shrine world. The poltergeist was overall annoying and non threatening, but it caused minor annoyances like mission items, occassional unplanned light speed jumps, some insanity inspiring visions and nightmares. The biggest problem was the ghost of the princess who was also haunting the ship. She promised the pilgrims sanctuary and safety and then they were executed by her own house guard, accused of heresy and kidnapping the princess. The princess later committed suicide on the ship.

Occassionally the poltergeist would try to destroy her ghost. That caused all kinds of issues.

However, as a possessed/haunted ship it did have some advantages. The ship would heal itself, the ghost crew could occassionally lend an helping (yet ethereal) hand and give a +1D on certain actions and so forth.

Overall, the Peaceful Pilgrim was a good ship.