JuankiMan said:

Incorrect. Orks do have a culture and a civilisation. That culture is focussed utterly on the perpetuation of conflict, but then so is the Imperium. Orks are innately violent, brutal creatures, yes, but they don't actually regard their violent nature as being anything inappropriate. Orks themselves are resilient enough that the random acts of violence that they inflict on others are little more than the body language that accompanies their speech.

JuankiMan said:

I like how you've bought the Inquisitions story hook line and sinker.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

They have culture and civilization in the most generous use of the term. Everything they do is geared towards war, and the only thing that isn't are totems to the two gods of war that make up their entire pantheon, some of which actually get outfitted with heavy ordnance to do some stompin' of their own. And of course they don't regard their violent nature as inappropiate since they're absolutely incapable of thinking about anything else. The Imperium isn't geared towards the perpetuation of conflict, it's just that, in Macharius' own words, "there can be no peace in these times". If anything it is geared towards self-perpetuation at any cost. But the Imperium has poets, scribes, remembrancers, farmers, family-men. Non-combatants, people who, if they're lucky, spend their whole lives neither seeing nor wanting war. But orks cannot help but want war. They actually need it. Their own language includes healthy amounts of physical violence and, if they can find no one to stomp readily at hand, they will kill each other with reckless abandon, instinctively knowing that their insane reproduction rate will cover whatever casualties they might suffer.

Seeten said:

Thank you. If you disagree, however, you're free to actually debate it.

JuankiMan said:

The Imperium is on a perpetual war footing. Every resource, every asset, and every world's industry is turned to the sustenance of the armies of the Imperium. It has been this way since the Great Crusade, and because the Imperium was shattered by the Heresy and never properly rebuilt (because those rebuilding it were not the Emperor and had no true sense of HIs true vision), it has remained a civilisation built to sustain eternal warfare. Its fundamental creed is the extinction of all non-human intelligent life in the galaxy in order to perpetuate the dominance of humanity over the stars.

The Imperium was forged in warfare. It is built to sustain that war. Without that war, the entire structure of the Imperium would require colossal change… and none within the ruling class of the Imperium are willing to face such change.

As stated by a character in Mass Effect 3, "War is atrocity committed in the name of survival". The Imperium exists to commit any atrocity in a war against extinction, save those which its all-pervasive militant faith specifically prohibits. By similar token, Orks do not wage war - indeed, they barely have a concept for it, save as a particularly large instance of fighting. They spread conflict and violence, certainly, but they fight for a love of violence more than any particular belief or even basic survival (Orks don't think that far ahead)… indeed, Orks would be perfectly content if they could exist forever, with endless violence but without death.

The Imperium wages war. Orks live to fight. The Imperium is suffused with lies, deception and propaganda. The Orks have no use for such falsehoods.

As an aside… the Eldar have "poets, scribes… farmers… non-combatants", all of whom would seek to avoid the endless conflict that pervades the galaxy. Few enough are the Eldar that even these few must on occasion be cast into the fires of battle. They are a species geared towards "self-perpetuation at any cost", to use your own words.

So the Dark Eldar are actually less evil than humanity because the DE certainly do not seek to exterminate all xenos species. They just want to prey upon them as essential food sources (the chicken soup of the Dark Eldar soul), and food sources must be sustained.

PS - The Dark Eldar really remind me of the Wraith from Stargate Atlantis.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

You seem to be under the impression that the Imperium has any choice on the matter. Between Ork WAAGH!!!s, the Tyranid ever growing menace, the ever-present threat of Chaos, Necron omnicidal campaigns, the ever inescrutable Eldar and their raids, and dozens of minor xenos that are just as likely to be the victims of human hatred as they are of being the aggressors themselves, the Imperium has absolutely no choice whatsoever but to divert a massive chunk of its resources towards its multiple armed forces, and it is still barely enough. Hell, recent estimates calculate that in order to stop the recent Hive Fleets reinforcing Kraken and Leviathan recruitment would need to be increased by 400% throughout three Segmentums.

Of course no one in the ruling class want to face such a change. Such a change would spell doom to the entire human race. If things were different, if humanity wasn't already on the brink of annihilation and assailed from all sides from innumerable threats, then perhaps change might be possible. But again, there can be no peace in these times.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

There was one very lucky Ork Warboss who led his WAAGH!!! straight into the Eye of Terror and invaded a planet-sized daemon who cursed him and his boyz to forever fight and be slaughtered by his daemonic armies over and over again, ever rising from the dead to once more kill and die for all eternity. He couldn't have been happier.

But that's really the beauty of Orkdom. They have only one want, only one desire, and they're absolutely and perfectly desgined for it. Humans fight for many things: to protect, to destroy, out fear, out of duty, out of greed, out of devotion, out of spite, out of selflesness… Orks fight because they're made for fightin' and winnin'. And just like in the Tyranid case, the fact that an Ork kills and maims not out of malice but out of a love for combat is of little consolation to an innocent civilian who gets a choppa to the face while trying to flee the Green Tide.

If you've played Space Marine you might remember a part where the party is traversing a massacred hab-block and Leandros ponders why the Orks would bother to slaughter helpless civilians inside their homes. Sidonus theorizes that maybe it was done to sow terror and demoralize the PDF but Titus corrects him. Such an act wasn't done as part of any military strategy. For the Orks that was sport.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Indeed. In that respect they're exactly the same as the Imperium. The difference is that they are so few in number that, save for Ulthwe, most of their armed forces are technically militia. But to think the Eldar as kind is extremely naive. The Eldar had the galaxy in the palm of their hand once. Before the Eye of Terror, before the return of the Necrons, before the Tyranid Hive Fleets. They ruled the entire galaxy virtually unopposed, and what did they do with that power? They abused it, using the galaxy as their little plaything until, quite literally, their toy broke. And everything and everyone paid the price, their own toll being the highest.

HappyDaze said:

That's quite open to debate. After all, any Dark Eldar worth his salt will joyfully teach you that there are fates far, far worse than death.

With the Imperium it will be quick, it will be brutal and, in many cases, mostly painless. You probably won't feel a thing when the lance strike vaporizes everything you've ever known and loved. The Dark Eldar will make you tearfully beg for the sweet release for death, if you still retain your tear ducts that is. And the joke is on you regardless, because with the Dark Eldar, death is only the beginning.

Don't let yourself be taken alive.

JaunkiMan, while we disagree on the overall ability of a Dark Eldar of average cunning to be trusted amongst the crew of a Rogue Trader, I really can't fault your grasp of the general Dark Eldar temperment, and absolute sadism.

Blood Pact said:

Well, I don't know. In my opinion the chances of a Dark Eldar being trusted amongst the crew of a Rogue Trader are between zero and none, unless the Rogue Trader is stupid, criminally ignorant or simply drunk on his own hubris.

That's assuming the Dark Eldar doesn't have plenty of good reasons to keep them alive and work with them. The kind of Rogue Trader who'd work with a Dark Eldar in the first place, would likely be a pretty cold hearted individual themself. The cunning ones will find ways to prosper together, and the same holds true for the Dark Eldar as well. Powerful and ruthless crew members hating each other isn't a new concept for a Rogue Trader game (or the background), but they can work together all the same. And the Dark Eldar manage that well enough in their own society, concerning Real-space Raids, where everyone is too focused on working like a well blood-oiled machine to stab each other in the back.

And of course, a Dark Eldar whose forced to live among humans must be there by circumstances that preclude killing everyone for the evulz.

JuankiMan said:

I think at its heart you have a very very different interpretation of the setting than the rest of us seem to, which is totally ok (everyone reads things a little differently, though). For the sake of argument, though:

The Pre-Fall Eldar are much more akin to the modern "Dark Eldar" in their behavior and practice. Modern Craftworld Eldar created the Paths and the rest of their culture precisely to avoid the kinds of mistakes that their ancestors created. Is it a perfect system? No, but to say that Eldar society and cultured hasn't changed (if not learned) from their mistakes is ridiculous; they more than anyone are aware of the flaws of their past. Exodites and Harlequins took an entirely different route, and Dark Eldar chose to continue on the path of old.

To condemn the craftworld Eldar for what their ancestors did would be like blaming a newborn German for what the Nazis did. It doesn't really make sense, and doesn't enter into the equation. 

I also think you're being quite unfair in saying the Imperium's cause (and focus) on war is any different than the Tau, the Eldar, or any other race. Sure, the Imperium has non-military members, but so do the Tau and the Eldar. Sure, they fight out of necessity, but Tau often make diplomatic overtures before resorting to violance, and many Craftworlds are open to alliances (whereas the Imperial official doctrine is shoot xenos on sight, no matter what). I would say that the Imperium initially militarized out of necessity, but at this point have fully embraced it and there is little practical difference between their cause for war and any other race, and if you look at their official policy, they're clearly much more "evil" than Tau or Eldar.

Of course, this all breaks down a bit when it comes to practical experience and how each race behaves.

Finally, I'm not sure if you're aware, but the difference between all types of Eldar are purely mental and based on outlook. A Craftworld Eldar can suddenly decide to be a ranger and leave the Path, or become a corsair, or decide to venture to Commorragh. Similarly, a "Dark" Eldar may suddenly reject the lifestyle and decide to join a Craftworld or move to an Exodite world. It's not unheard of, or even rare, as far as these things go. Just because a PC is techically a Dark Eldar doesn't mean they ascribe to every belief common to their kind. Indeed, it's even possible that the PC is a "recovering" Dark Eldar, drawing upon his abiltiies honed by decades of practice, but in general is trying to steer away from the worst depravities of his kind (and perhaps sometimes failing). The important point is you seem to want to generalize all Dark Eldar and paint them in terms of pure black, but even amongst them there is some variation and shades of (very dark) gray.

Exodite Eldar are the least morally reprehensible in the setting. They fight only in self-defense, and exist in harmony with their planets.

 Craftworlders fight for survival, and to halt the spread of Chaos. The Tau Empire uses diplomacy when possible, and is collectivist; they want other races to join, instead of just wiping them out. I'd say both of these factions are better than the Imperium.

New Necrons (Retcrons, as some calls them) are on par with the Imperium on a moral level, I'd say. They have largely the same motivations (getting 'lesser' races out of the way of their empire) and aren't terribly different. They fight to conquer.

Chaos is an inherently anarchistic force. The forces of Chaos fight to continue the existence of strife in the galaxy and generally make things worse.

Dark Eldar are actively sadistic. They do not fight in self-defense nor to conquer, but simply because they enjoy making others suffer and die. Pretty close to objective evil.

Orks and Tyranids are on their own levels, being driven in a largely animal sense to fight and war. Both are comparable to a germ or virus more than a species. Oldcrons would largely fit this as well.

I miss anyone?

Blood Pact said:

It's an Eldar, it is inherently untrustworthy, and Dark Eldar ten times more so. How does the Rogue Trader know the filthy xenos really has reasons to keep them alive and cooperate beyond deception and manipulation? Also Eldar have a reputation of being flighty as the wind (generally a misconception bred from Eldar plans being so long-term and convoluted that humans are incapable of seeing the cause and effect, but that's beside the point) so his acquiesence could unexpectedly change at any moment. Also don't expect any kind of loyalty from him. Not only is the term incomprehensible to him, he also considers the Rogue Trader little more than a well-dressed chimp. The mere act of cooperating will probably be seen as an indignity that will make him fantasize cruel and unusual forms of revenge in his free time, so you can be assured that he will betray him without a second thought the moment something better or more convenient comes along.

Cooperation may be possible, but never, ever trust. Only a tense state of paranoia and forced smiles, shaking hands while plotting how to dispose of the other as soon as they outlive their usefulness, and both probably believing that they're merely using the other as a pawn.

All the while the crew will find just dandy having a alien monstrosity addicted to pain and suffering running around the ship during those long, dull and boring weeks in the Immaterium.

JuankiMan said:

Sounds no different from how Imperial nobles interact with one another, or various factions of the Inquisition, or the various branches of the Adeptus Terra,  or…