Well, I agree that the career system from WFRP wouldnt work well in 40K, but I would also say that the current Dark Heresy career system also doesnt work well enough.

Just my opinion.

A classless/rankless system would have been best.

But then you would have to Use Development points like in anima, or something else like it. (excample that comes straight to mind is the Hero system)  I am just trying to see how that would work PeaceKeeper. Do you have an idea of how they could work something like that into the game?

Ranek7212 said:

The base char-gen system from DH/WFRP would remain, you would determine your origin and stats the exact same way. But you would have some sort of starting skill/talent selection that was open ended, sort of like the 400 starting XP, but presented differently.

The main thing is you wouldnt me restricted in skills at char-gen. So, if you wanted to start with Weapon Training (Chain Weapons) you could.

I would reference BRP/Call of Cthulhu variety of games as well as the D6 games.

The main issue here, and the way I see that DH was formatted initially, is that DH/RT are more or less spin offs of WFRP and therefore the notion of evolving "career" changing professions is a cornerstone of the fabric and feel of the game system. And while I was initially dissappointed that DH didnt take that route, it is evident in the rank structure that it is emulated to a degree. You dont really change careers, just ranks and at some points you get to choose from 2 or 3 ranks.

Sure no two guardsmen are alike after 2000 XP, they have such variety and breadth to emulate and choose from for skills, talents, characteristic improvements. But most starting Guardsmen are very similar. Grab +5WS or BS, grab +5 S, grab Sound Constitution and so forth.

The package deals in Inquisitor's Handbook went a long way to correct some of my initial misgivings and dislike of the char-gen system, espcially with options like Tranch War Veteran and so forth, that gave the character some background and feel to them, like they are more then just cardboard cutouts but have some personality.

But overall, I think the things I would keep are the following. Initial Career Packages (Arbitrator, Cleric, Guardsman and so forth) for initial skills, talents and equipment, though I may make them a little more generic in terms (example, from Guardsman to Soldier or Warrior). I would also keep the Background Packages (Tanch War Veteran and so forth) and the Origins (Imperial Worlder, Void Born and so forth) but after that I would get rid of the ranks (despite the cool alternate ranks presented in the game thus far). And let the XP be spent on a more broad term. Meaning you wouldnt have to wait for a certain rank to have a skill or talent available, there would just be a flat fee for each skill (modified by origin/career package possibly) as long as you meet all requirements.

But it would take a lonk real look and some work to actually put together a system that fit the game. And I cant be angry at BI or FFG for what they did, it does work, and while I dislike the meta-gaming of Elite Advances (the Deus Ex Machine) they do work for what they were intended to do. And me, being a big fan of rules as written, I wont be changing the system that much as my players already understand the game, and revising the system would make so much of the IHB null and void.

The overall point is this, there was room for a free form careerless/rankless system in the game, but the ball was dropped/ignored for a more familiar/approachable career/rank (Class/Level) system.

You do have some really good ideas there Peacekeeper. I was just wondering what alternative you had in mind instead of the current Char- Gen. I think it could work, but then again you would have people who would try to take advantage of the new system.

Hi

Is it possible to use Rogue Trader to play a game like the Firefly series? I mean have a smaller vessel, with a  crew that is basically  the other players, and just take off, into the great unknown. or are you going to say no?   "no you have to play it like the boring Enterprise in Star Trek". If that is your answer, Im STILL GOING to buy RT. just so you know.

Mal Reynolds said:

Im sure you will be able to handle whatever size you want. Its just the distance you will be able to go overall. If you are a system/several close system campaign then you should be fine, but hoping about one end of Calixis to the other, well thats a different story.

The Game is Perfect! leave it be or be it leave  

its meant to be a strict class system, afterall you are playing members of the inquisition, don`t you? its not like they are all like "freedom for the individual, and please feel free to express yourself independently in our strict training programs. After all the Inquisition, is your platform to a better career, life and opportunity, We welcome change!" 

no sir , in Dark Heresy you come fresh from the factories of mind control and propaganda. all have similar training depending on your class. and there is no room for individual training. 

It was just a thought. 

maybe I am wrong, in that case refer to my quote.  

 The concepts of Endeavors and Wealth Factors have made me even more excited about this game.

As a game master, I've always wanted to create a game that gave my players as many options as they could come up with.  Unfortunately few games support this structure.  Most games seem to railroad players by default.

For a long time now I've envisioned a game that lets the players drive the story, rather than the game master leading them by the nose, and it looks like Rogue Trader may well enable that.

I tried to do this in the past with games like Shadowrun, allowing players a choice of different jobs to undertake as well as a large number of options on how they undertook those jobs.  Certain concepts were formalized via game mechanics to give a certain sense of progression and structure, which games need.

Unfortunately I ran into a few problems.  For one, many players seem to WANT to be lead by the nose.  They want the GM to practically tell them where to go next.  They want to roll dice and shoot the bad guys, and that's the extent of it.

The other problem is that you can't prepare normally for every eventuality that players may undertake.  So it requires a lot of tools to generate things on the fly, such as NPCs, places and even plot hooks.  I think though that a system optimized for this would be absolutely brilliant.

I've got a huge amount of faith in the Dark Heresy team.  Been playing the game since it came out and every new thing I discover about the game just makes it better.  By the looks, Rogue Trader is shaping up to be another masterpiece.

I agree with the comments above, I would like to see some advanced careers that you can move in and out of.  I am actually hopeful that this will be presented in the Advanced Inquisition handbook later this year (forget the name) and it will let you take your X career charachter and make him a Y career character.  Inquistors come from somewhare, from what I read in the Eisenhorn books they start as cogs (Starting Player Characters), become interrigators with a mentor, then they become full Inquistors.  That seems to imply to me that you start with your basic career and become another.

I hope that Rogue Traders are only available once you have spent 10,000 xp.  Sure you can run a ship before then, but who follows a rank one captain?  How does that even happen?  Sure we can come up with some reason or another, but why struggle when the system is here to help us?

Just my two cents.

Mal Reynolds said:

Well Mal, it isnt perfect, there is great room for improvement and betterment. But there are many many things that are so grand with the system and game, that I can play it just as it is. In my time of playing RPGs I have seen many systems, some fantastic, some horrible. DH has a unique position of overall being one of the best, but the clunky career system just distracts me for character generation and advancement.

Now there were massive improvements for the career/rank system in The Inquisitor's Handbook with background packages, Alternate Career Ranks and Elite Advance Packages. And that was taken a step further with Tattered Fates and its Adventure Specific Elite Advance Packages, which answers my primary concern for the career system as it is.

After an adventure or two with an inquisitor in the inquisition doing inquisitive things, characters would change and evolve to more suit that package of progression, not just continue to buy "career" defined and limited skills and talents. A guardsman who faces a xeno beast a few times just might pick up the Forbidden Lore: Xeno skill, even if only as a "basic" skill availability. And yes "Elite Advances" respond to this issue, but they are so undefined and random that it only partly solves the problem and basically becomes a GM's Fiat or Fnord. Not a game mechanic.

And if that is going to be the solution, then the whole basic career system is flawed enough that I can just look at the Rank One chart for Guardsman then look at my GM and say "But I want Chainsword now?!?" and right then and there, under elite advances, the GM can say "Sure, it will cost you 200XP, all your starting money, 1 fate point and -3 to your fellowship" with the fate point and fellowship loss being defined as a result of a chain sword training "accident".

Sure most players wont go to that level or fee at starting ranks, but it is there, as an undefined option.

So Starting Backgrounds took that to the next level, charging XP and Characteristic/Insanity/Corruption penalties to a character in exchange for a few skills, talents and access to some advance skills and basic skills. Which was cool, and broadened the playing field for character generation. Now take it a step further with some of the Rank 1 Alternate Career Ranks and you can have some diverse, independent and unique starting characters.

But the freeform design is still missing. But obviously a formula exists for creating the Starting Background Packages, or the designers are just pulling the packages out of their heinies and are not balancing them or anything, except through perhaps play test. But a formula must exist, as if you look at the Background Packages and divide the cost by 100 and then ass 1 per each drawback/penalty for the "kit" you get approximately the number of bonus skills, talents or characteristic improvements.

The career system provides a simple, decent and yet disorganized start for the game, one that works just fine and can support the core skeleton of the system for years before being revised. Heck in my time Ive even designed a few new careers (yay Commissars). The starting packages are fine and so are the ranks themselves, in general.

Personally I would implement the formula for the Background Packages into the core rules, or at least publish it as a free PDF for GMs/players to use themselves. Then I would allows "drawbacks" to be taken that grant additional XP for character generation/advancement. These can range from characteristic penalties, starting insanity points/corruption points, reduced movement, reduced fate points, and many other examples we have seen in Role Playing games across the ages (DC Heroes, HERO System, Savage Worlds, GURPS and so forth).

Then I would apply the simple rules for "career" jumping from Warhammer Fantasy, but instead call it "Rank" Jumping. At anytime before expending 500XP a Conscript (rank 1 Guardsman) could "Rank" jump to Guard (Rank 2) for a fee of 200XP. After expending 500XP they can make that jump for a mer 100XP (or even 50). Thus you could explain how some people advance in rank fast, and while they dont know much about what their job really is they have greater access to variety and why some pleple seem to never advance and yet are masters of their fields.

Now with all these ideas in place (and they are rough and not worked out or anything) I would still not let starting characters take more then perhaps 600-1000 XP in drawbacks (pre-existing background pacakges would not count their drawback XP in these ones), allowing starting characters to begin upwards to 2/3rds the way done with Rank 3.

Course they would still be restricted to starting equipment, which can still hurt. But it would explain some things, like why Sergeants with 2,999XP still use a simple Lasgun and flak armour on a regular basis across the Imperium.

Course, if you implement drawbacks, might as well implement advantages!

Peacekeeper_b said:

thank you for the illuminating and enlightenening answer, although a bit extensive. I`ve read it twice to try to better understand the meaning of the context.

and may I say well formulated arguments!

As I understand it the rulebook Dark Heresy, don`t offer enough varities for playercharacters, and this flaw is obvious enough once you start to advance through the careerpath. I can see that is true. 

But additional books in DH game, offered much improved rules and mechanics to deal with this problem, according to you. This is fine, I like the varities and freedom of choice once you have learned how to survive a modul or two. 

For instance many veterans of ww2,  changed their flawed firerarms with the one looted on the battlefields, and quickly became quite adept with the new firearm of preferance.

This, I have no problem with. 

Its the freeform design I have problems with.

 I am sure the designers have a sort of formula (possible stuck up somewhere in their heinies ,- its where they like to keep them), and it should be released for gamemasters ONLY, to work on their own career paths and so.

But the BIG problem with a Freeform Design for players to create their characters, is just that it can off-balance the game mechanics as they are. Its like a cake where each layer is new rules and mechanics to deal with the freeform design, where each layer builds up. In the end a smart player only takes the topping (which have the best parts) and leave the cake bottom all alone. You see what I am trying to say,- while wanting a cake, - is that for new talents, special abilities and rules  to be interesting for new varities of putting your character togheter, they have to be slighly better than the previous game mechanics. if not why buy the supplement?

I`ve seen it over and over again in roleplaying games, where  each supplement tries to overbid the previous, Like D&D3, in the end you could find a Paladin doing practically anything with his Lay on Hands ability, from smithing enemies, to fly , to use psionic abilities. maybe an overstatement. 

But you can`t deny the possiblity is there. I prefer to put limitations on my players so they don`t warp the game, instead of giving them endless freedom to twirk and bend the rules, just to maximise their character.

And where is the realism in that?. in every real life career, there is some boring and uncool things you just have to learn in order to do your job. 

But if the players can just pick their talents and skill with no regard to profession, even at higher cost. They will do that if it makes their character tougher, more cool etc.

I Shudder at the thought of giving my players the ability to design their own Career and paths.

Well, it is no secret I am not a big fan of the career/rank system. I say it everyday afterall. But the revisions I seek to design (now that a dialogue has been opened and Ive seen a few possible pathways here) would not alter the game as is that much at all. In fact, if done properly it could be added in two pages of text in the Dark Heresy core rules, and if condensed, perhaps even one. (though I believe the standard print practices work in page sets of 4 or 8.

In fact, done properly you could add "Rank Jump" as a rule to the game as a side bar on page 43 of DH Core Rules and replace the picture there with said side bar.

The point is, I like some of the improvements they have added (packages, elites, alternate ranks), but see alternatives that could be added to the game to help create characters a player may want to play instead of just being stuck with what there already is.

After all, in over a year of play, Ive only seen on type of Feral Guardsman Rank 1.+5 WS, +5 S, Sound Constitution (x2).

Other alternatives is a Dark Heresy Career Compendium that holds all the careers already in the game (8 or 9 if Im correct), houses all the current alternate ranks, homeworlds of Origin and packages and includes many new ones. 4 or 5 per career at least, with a peference of at least 1 or 2 of them being available at rank 1, and so forth.

But the drawback/advantage system could work, maybe with a 600XP limit (equal to start of Rank 3?).

But as is, the Dark Heresy system does work, does make a complete system, is familiar enough as a system (level and class) that people from other game backgounds can follow it easily enough and the system will hold the game in place and work for years to come. But as I said, it could be better.

I wouldnt want to add any rules that would make anything in any of the 7 current books or in the 4 proposed releases obsolete or redundant. A simple add that allows everything in play to remain, but opens up the options a tad bit for starting characters.